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is harmful to e-mail ecosystem; its antispam blocking policy matches too many valid messages as spam.

It blocked LastPass email leak warning email, because it contained "a link" to a leaked site.

It blocked an e-mail from goverment agency addressed directly to me.

It discriminates all non-gmail servers, and it's pretty much impossible to own a private SMTP server these days, because GMail will classify everything as spam.

It's not how e-mail should work.

Consider dropping GMail.

@antekone Another horrible related thing that's starting to happen a lot is that many email sysadmins are getting lazy when it comes to spam set up and simply rejecting all incoming messages from any mail servers that aren't google, ms etc which helps to cement their monopoly even more 😞

@aran @antekone Try contact a reasonably large company with a custom domain... It gives me the shivers just writing this. :(

@lschuermann @antekone I've been running my own mail server for about 15yr now, and I'm finding that sending to G,MS etc servers is actually working very well nowadays, but you do have to ensure you're config is rock solid including rDNS, IPv6, SPF, DKIM and DMARC. Use a tool like mxtoolbox.com to ensure your server's IP is not blacklisted anywhere, and a tool such as mail-tester.com to analyse and report on the email your server sends.

@aran @antekone Yeah, I'm running mine for a few years now and with the big providers (which *know* how to do Email correctly but sometimes deliberately decide to fuck things up) I never had an issue. Its medium to large company's sysadmins which apparently don't know that services other than their domain and the big webmail providers exist. Even worse, I've got my MX on a subdomain (with is.currently.online, that's a must :D).

@antekone it also blocks sometimes legit emails from Debian without any reason given. not nice :(

@antekone The links the send in the reject messages also point to "help" pages that are not helpful and not telling me what they want to see, e.g. support.google.com/mail/?p=IPv doesn't mention IPv6 at all...

@cm @antekone Speaking of GMail's IPv6 support: even with perfectly configured IPv6 FCrDNS, DMARC, SPF, DKIM, ADSP, etc., Google keeps randomly rejecting e-mail sent using IPv6. Only option: force all outbound e-mail aimed at Google to be sent to a hard-coded IPv4 GMail inbound relay, overriding their DNS. Very clean & convenient... 😕

@antekone The problem with the email service provider market is that people choose their one provider for life. It takes too much time to change hundreds of online (and offline) accounts that have the old address. Most people don’t have a record of who has their email address so they don’t even know who and what needs their new address. This protocol-level vendor lock-in allows for unchallanged abusive policies and hurts competition.

@antekone I agree with you on most points but "pretty much impossible" does not fully match my experience. I manage my own SMTP server and I interact with Gmail people.

@bortzmeyer @antekone

Same, and by run I mean cheat and run mail in a box. But after some initial bounces and spam labelling, I now can send email to new Gmail users without issue.

@jamie @bortzmeyer @antekone

Ya it was disheartening when I had to sometimes use a different email.

@robjloranger

@jamie @bortzmeyer @antekone

I would love to. anybody has some how-to/guidelines/tutorial on how to achieve it?

@robjloranger @bortzmeyer @antekone Gmail is actually not that harsh against self-hosted mail servers, as long as the mail server has a few weeks/months of history. Outlook on the other hand is an absolute mess...

@kindly @bortzmeyer @antekone Gmail doesn't like xyz domains though, which is sad because they are so affordable

@antekone I completely agree! Consider dropping GMail in favor of some smaller provider (not Yahoo or the likes) - there are many remaining and doing a great job in keeping the Internet as open as they can.

@antekone (don't let this discourage you from running your own email server though. There are tricks to it, but it's definitely possible, I do it)

@antekone Google provides the dominant service in a number of areas now and shows in all of those areas that if you dominate the market you don't need to provide good service. In many cases the main feature they provide over the competition is unlimited space.

@antekone @widerspenst in all of the cases I've seen (people complaining on the internet), peoples mail servers were not blocked because "they're not gmail", but because they weren't implementing the modern abuse protection measures such as DMARC. Given the gravity of the spam problem in email, I would suggest that those are no longer optional. I would hope that any reasonable email server admin would block those emails too.

@antekone
Drop Gmail. Only use for the account here is for login authentication on Google -powned essential infrastructure. The ASB Bank, for example, now insists on a Google account for NFC payments.

@antekone
If I could, I'd use gmail only to receive email from people i consider likely to send me spam or for websites that require you to have a valid email to sign up but don't want emails from.

@antekone I switched to Fastmail, but I get spam in my inbox every day now :(.

@antekone is go so far as to say that Gmail isn’t Internet email, and I suspect that their system isn’t even SMTP standards compliant (though I haven’t had a chance to prove that yet).

It’s like any myriad of old proprietary email systems (AOL, Compuserve, etc.), and you’re right, it’s making its users more and more undeliverable.

@antekone Well, I turned that horse around: my mail server auto-responds to mails from Gmail, telling the sender that I won't (and that they should get themselves a "real mail provider" that respects the privacy of their correspondents).

@IzzyOnDroid
That's the attitude. 🙂

I do that when people send me links to #Dropbox or crap like that.

“Dear X, Your link doesn't work, please upload your files to mynextcloudinstallation.exampl (where /upload is a redirect to a shared directory configured as a file drop).

@antekone

@antekone
Let me say, in my smuggiest voice:

I
Don't
Have
A
Google
Account.
Never
Had.
😎
😎
😎

@antekone outlook.com has similar issues. It blocks whole IP ranges (e.g. the whole Hetzner IP space) and drops or bounces mails from there (sometimes even silenty).

@antekone Goog seems to put emails from SDF accts in to spam now.

This problem is bigger then most realize. Tons of companies now outsource their email to goog (or outlook) because they get tired of fighting to say off blacklists. Just because it isn't "@gmail.com" doesn't mean it isn't powered by Gmail. You can get yourdoamin.com powered by gmail.
Goog & Outlook.com basically run a protection racket today. Hire them for your email hosting or risk having your domain labeled as spam. 😡

@antekone

"Consider dropping GMail." 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

@antekone this happened to me when using Mailbox.org with custom domain. My mails were considered by spam by Gmail recipients.

I managed to solve this with proper SFP and DKIM configuration.

@antekone I eventually want to move to a different mail provider, maybe s9mething like mail.com which is end to end encrypted...

@antekone it's increasingly seeing more adoption among corporates. For commoners, there's nothing better than free
:blobugh:

@antekone

This seems a bit hyperbolic. Gmail isn't the reason that self-hosted email servers are increasingly difficult to manage. Spammers and the necessary security responses to them are the reason why most people can't keep up.

@antekone
>Consider dropping GMail.

I do!

~ # cat /etc/postfix/header_checks
/^From:\s.*(gmail\.com)/
REJECT Use anything but GMail, thanks.

@antekone ok but how am I supposed to use a youtube account without it? I mean, I don't primarily use gmail but it's kinda hard to live without google, you know?

don't get me wrong, I'd prefer Google to be abolished all together, or at least have its business model be different, and make its products actually be GPL open source, but that ain't happening any time soon, and for now, Google controls a lot of our lives, and there are no alternatives

@miro @antekone Don't use a Youtube account at all because it's only here to spy on you.You can watch all videos without a account,or even better using a Invidious instance like invidious.kabi.tk where you can register for a local,independent account which has features like subscriptions without needing a Google account.You can watch all videos without ads and tracking there.Need alternatives for other Google shit?Just ask me,I know them all!

@nipos @antekone how can I watch videos WITH ads though? I know this might sound stupid but a lot of YouTubers I watch are poor as shit and they need to get money somehow

and no I'm not donating to them because I'm poor myself :P

oh, and are you able to upload videos with invidious?

@miro @antekone You can't watch ads with Invidious and you shouldn't because most of the money goes to Google and they should become poor 😛 You can't upload videos on Invidious because that's only allowed with a Google account but you can upload your own videos to PeerTube,a open source and federated video platform.Have a look at devtube.dev-wiki.de (I'm mod there btw)

@nipos @antekone also, I use Android and I need Google to install a lot of apps

and don't say F-Droid because not a lot of things are on there. even open source products aren't there. great example is Signal.

and it seems like Invidious isn't available either...

@miro @antekone Invidious isn't a app,it's a website.You can download NewPipe,a great Android app which does the same as Invidious.I know that F-Droid doesn't have all apps.Another great alternative is Aptoide which has nearly all Android apps and you can use it without needing a account.

@antekone Dropped my YouTube Premium / Google Play All Access account today because of YouTube cosying up to the far right. Already dropped Gmail, Google Calendar, Google Contacts, Google Docs.
@meta @antekone Very nice! I'm still clinging to Google Docs because there's nothing quite like it yet and Google Calendar for historical reasons, but leaving paid services is way more impressive overall.

@antekone You're so right,delete that shit.I deleted my Google account years ago and haven't missed it a single time.There are so many good,privacy-respecting and free email providers.If you need one,here are the best: tutanota.com , dismail.de and disroot.org

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