Google and Facebook are *advertising* businesses.

Apple is not *as* bad because they have a different business model: planned-obsolescence.

@wolftune still... very little to admire about any of them.

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@lightweight @wolftune Ads are annoying, but is advertising inherently bad?

TV, radio and magazines have always been supported by advertisement, I don't see why the web shouldn't, especially when nobody can figure out an alternative economic model that would work for most websites.

@codewiz @lightweight

Ads are far more than annoying. Name any ill in our modern world that wasn't an issue thousands of years ago, and I can probably tie it to *dependency* on advertising (especially when you consider that political campaigns are driven by ads).

@wolftune @lightweight @snowdrift Very good reading, and mostly agreeable.

Yet, I still suspect that my favorite niche websites out there wouldn't survive solely on these alternative funding models, and I say this even though I personally subscribe to a ton of websites, including one newspaper and three Japanese language learning sites.

@wolftune @lightweight I know ads are annoying, that's why we have uBlock Origin 😂

@codewiz @lightweight

Yes, and Google is updating Chrome and Chromium to make uBlock Origin stop working

@wolftune @lightweight Yeah, I heard the news and I hope it doesn't happen... but if it does happen, users still have the freedom to fork Chromium or switch to Firefox. Which I would certainly do.

@codewiz @lightweight

> alternative economic model that would work for most websites

I'm working on one @snowdrift
well, I dunno about "most websites" but maybe.

Anyway, there's a zero-sum competition here for attention. Ads drive attention and take attention. If my competitors pay for ads that show up at the top of a search, I have to pay more to get there and compete to get people to MY website. Ads *cost* websites as much or more than they *fund* them!

@wolftune @lightweight @snowdrift Well, but it's not the same websites though: toyota.com buys ads and pays them with revenue from car sales, while, say, lwn.net and phoronix.com use the ads income to finance daily Linux news.

Both these sites also ask users to subscribe (which I do), but won't you agree that they might have to scale down their operations if they were forced to survive solely on subscription revenue?

@codewiz @lightweight @snowdrift

In a world without all the harms advertising supports, all the people who struggle to keep LWN going could be better off and not need as much direct income.

If Apple/Microsoft/Google ads disappeared, it would be easier to get GNU messages to people's attention. If LWN had 100× audience size, they could have at least 5× subscribers.

Snowdrift.coop and crowdmatching aims to increase the portion of readers who donate too.

I'm not pushing unilateral disarmament

@codewiz @lightweight

Incidentally, I thought my original post was saying the everyone-knows-this about ads and the main point was to give an honest and critical frame to Apple, who are usually described as "a hardware company" primarily which doesn't highlight what's wrong with them.

@codewiz @lightweight (not that planned-obsolescence is all that's wrong with Apple, but it's their primary business model, with the walled-garden cut-of-the-app-market being secondary)

@wolftune @lightweight @snowdrift Would you be more favorable to advertisement if we were to outlaw the most negative forms of it ?

For instance, many countries restrict advertisement of addictive substances and gambling. The US, UK and other common law countries prohibited provably false advertisement... but deceptive and psychologically manipulative advertisement is still fine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_ad

@codewiz @lightweight @snowdrift

I support reasonable regulations on ads. And yes, blocking the advertising of some of the worst things is good. But it's sorta like my quip elsewhere in this thread about social-investing.

Yes, we should ban marketing of prescription medication directly to consumers. But that's just a start.

I do find far more sympathy with arguments that maybe bans and regulations won't work or will have unintended consequences. I don't sympathize as much with "ads are fine"

@wolftune @lightweight @snowdrift
Yesterday at the combini I saw "protein pasta", which is nothing but regular pasta because wheat contains protein.

Intentionally taking advantage of consumers' naivety is morally equivalent to false advertisement, but it can't be punished as easily 😞

@codewiz No. Any paid advertising contaminates all marketing. Imagine a world where you knew every exposure to a brand was earned, not bought, from those providing the exposure. The business of learning information would suddenly be a lot more simple, as bribery-motivated endorsements wouldn't be the norm. @wolftune @lightweight

@codewiz I don't think regulation is the way to go, even - I think it's more important we stop facilitating advertising with various grants and government purchasing of it. I'm concerned banning negative advertising, beyond provably false advertising, could be a political or social tool; imagine fb going "ads about other social media make us look bad, so should be banned." our governments aren't always bright, they might do it. @wolftune @lightweight

@codewiz @wolftune I'm pretty sure that a world without ads wouldn't be a worse place.

@lightweight @wolftune Has any jurisdiction ever outlawed ads completely? Would be interesting to see how it would reshape the economy... Some jobs would certainly disappear, but perhaps others would take their place.

@codewiz @lightweight

I didn't say whether outlawing ads would work (it's not politically possible). I just said ads are bad.

Also, jobs aren't an end in themselves. If jobs that produce zero or negative value disappear, that's good and there's no need to replace them. There's more to do in the world than people to do it. Not all of that is a "job" per se. See #bsjobs (Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber)

Anyway, Sao Paulo outlawed *outdoor* ads, and it was great in every way.

@codewiz
Capitalism is, by definition, exploitation. It's only moral defense is to make everyone else equally culpable, so that they become complicit in the defense. That brings us "right to work" laws and the principle of "caveat emptor," but there's no equivalent victim blaming or double speak for those situations where your relationship to the transaction is that of being the product
@lightweight @wolftune

@codewiz @lightweight @wolftune
I've run games and paid the bills with free will donations. Centralized media is promoted to concentrate costs, create barriers to competition, and collect rent on the consequences. Peer 2 peer technologies share costs directly and federation allows communities to share the expense. Approaches with inadequate trials include microtransactions and straight up socialism

@yaaps @codewiz @wolftune I usually refer to corporations as "engines of inequity" because that's essentially what they are.

@lightweight
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - Thomas Jefferson

In case you see someone under the impression that "corporations are a threat to democracy" is a recent (2011) idea

@lightweight @yaaps @codewiz I focus on corporations as organized-supply-side. And that isn't inherently bad, but it explains inequities. The *power* of the supply side is due to its organizing. The demand side is divided individuals. Power comes from organizing and solidarity. Imagine corporations trying to keep their power if all the individual humans had to work without the organized solidarity of a corporation…

I'm not anti-power, I want the organized power to serve public interest.

@wolftune
In order for the relationship to be non-coercive, you need equal power (at least approximately so) on both sides of the transaction. My contention that workers owning the means of production and consumers owning the means of distribution is an optimal approach to achieve this is based on observation of publishing industries and the relationships of indie authors and game developers to current distribution channels

@wolftune
Problem is that the power is generally in line with the organizer's demands, and people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals who can easily be led astray "for their own good."
@lightweight @yaaps @codewiz

@vik
@wolftune
That's a common outcome of organizing against something. Organizing *for* a thing can be intellectually engaging and has a better life expectancy

Also don't judge the working class for the education capitalism gave them or by the standards a privileged education may have given you. Everyone is capable of and deserving of self realization. You don't know what people are actually like until they've had that opportunity

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