@codewiz also, comparing the early 2000s to the decades ahead is quite questionable

@espectalll Why? Because they have better competition from other distros now than in the 2000s?

I believe Linux has more users today than 20 years ago, but it's hard to prove it with data if you disagree.

@codewiz No, because emails have probably been much more necessary back then, I doubt there's any correlation considering Debian is obviously more popular and important than back then

@codewiz Isn't Debian choking on their own bureaucracy? Based on what I have seen, it's incredibly difficult to actually do anything there, and I'd expect that to be very tiresome for new contributors.

@loke That's what I read in a blogpost of a frustrated Debian developer who was leaving the project due to a combination of slow progress and bad development infra.

@codewiz pretty sure that there is no relation between mailing activity and development but that's an interesting tendency... I'd like to see the same stats for IRC. And maybe the bugtracker. Which is kinda like debian-devel.

@benoit Since debbugs is email based, it's easy to see the bug activity from the mailng list stats:

(debian-bugs-dist receives new bug reports).

From the bug tracker we get the impression of a healthier community...

Is there an quick & easy way to get the pulse of packaging activity?

@benoit That was indeed a wise decision.

GitLab has per-project analytics, but I don't think there are public-facing stats for the entire instance. And anyway, there won't be enough historic data to draw any conclusions.

@codewiz Debian used to be my go to. Aptitude was a lot better than hunting around for dependencies.

@kai Yes, Debian had a head start in package management tools over everyone else. Now I'd say that Fedora and Arch have reached parity. Not to mention Ubuntu 😃

@kai But they recently announced that they will stop offering a desktop variant..

@codewiz oh no! Performance is a feature 😔 it's probably because I posted that evince bug on GitHub. They're probably like "ugh enough of this garbage" 😂

@kai These desktop users always complain! Let's focus on servers...

@codewiz haha well I just read the forum posts. It seems Clear has been on vanilla Gnome for a while but I didn't notice. I guess it used to ship with a custom theme.

I don't think this is a big deal for me. I really just like the performance optimizations.

Clear doesn't have a healthy culture. It is very elitist. If I were Intel, I would pour money into community management (and shield developers from "how do I print?").

But I don't really care about culture. I just like the performance…😅

@kai If the opensource process works as intended, at least some of Intel's performance work should pour into the other distros, eventually.

Other distros might still choose to prioritize compatibility or "works-out-of-the-box" in certain cases.

RedHat (and Fedora) definitely had the problem of starting all sort of random enterprise things that most users didn't need, like dmraid or sssd. Thanks to systemd's socket activation, they're no longer doing that.

@codewiz Clear Linux really makes Intel processors shine.

If I were Intel, I'd start another company, maybe a non-profit that accepts tax deductible donations from Intel, whose sole purpose would be a desktop-focused Linux distribution downstream from Clear, with all the video codecs and proprietary drivers.

American companies are so focused on short term profits…to their detriment imo.

@kai Intel is already hiring a ton of Linux engineers to focus on hardware support for Intel processors, GPUs, wifi cards, HDA sound, etc.

I think they're doing excellent work in some areas. For example, Intel GPUs achieved OpenGL 4.6 compatibility in Mesa before anyone else.


Intel also started the Sound Open Firmware project two years ago, to solve the longstanding issue of blobs in sound drivers. SOF is currently a nest of bugs for some laptops (like, for instance, mine 😅).



@kai Like with all big companies, Intel's open source strategy is somewhat schizophrenic. Some divisions get their drivers in the kernel as early as possible, while others remain secretive and fail to collaborate with upstream.

It all depends on what the VP particular believes, and often VPs come from acquisitions of companies with a preexisting culture.

@codewiz it seems really obvious to me (a casual observer) that there is a huge amount of enthusiasm and momentum around ARM and maybe RISC-V on the horizon. And while x86_64 is currently the dominant power platform, I wouldn't coast if the success of an enterprise as large as Intel depended on my ability to predict the future.

There's no line on a ledger for the value of getting young people excited about your platform.

I'd get as many children as possible drinking the Clear kool-aid 😂

@codewiz I'm pretty excited about Intel GPUs. They are really well supported by BSD etc.

I think my next machine will be an air cooled NUC with the Akasa case.

@kai AMD GPUs are also well supported. I own both 🙂

The only ones we should avoid like pest are Nvidia. They're still hell bent around their proprietary libGL and kernel module, which require a completely different API for Wayland compositors.

@codewiz try DragonFly BSD 😋 also there was some weird issue recently with Clear on AMD GPU so I swapped my NVidia back in for now.

@codewiz Debian's adoption of systemd was a mistake.

@darkstar Could Debian have survived for long as the only distro without systemd?

They're already having enough trouble packaging new apps due to outdated dependencies...

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