My top favorite:

"Arrows in table view headers now point the direction you expect: down when the biggest items are on top, and up when the biggest items are on the bottom"

I've always thought that was backwards... glad to see I wasn't the only one.

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@codewiz wait what. Shouldn't the order be in the order of sorting? I'd expect it to be point towards the biggest element.

I think the arrow are direct translation of ascending or descending order. So for descensing, the arrow goes down and the biggest element is on top.

@lefarfadet @loke Yes, Plasma 5.20 will behave as you describe. Currently, it's backwards.

@codewiz @lefarfadet but in the description you quoted, it says that alphabetic order will be represented using an upwards arrow. That makes no sense to me.

@loke @lefarfadet Imagine the arrow is a mathematical comparison operator:

"a" < "b" < "c"...

Now imagine a vertical list with the arrow in between the elements...

@loke There is logic to it but, really, these ^ / V things are not really informative as sorting characters :blobcatgoogly:

@codewiz @lefarfadet

I understand the argument and why it would make sense for some people. But it feels natural to me that descending order is a downward arrow.

Maybe it's a language thing? In french, "descendre" means going down. So the idea of a downward arrow for descending is immediate.

Of course it's french, so going up is not "ascendre", as one could logically expect (we use "monter"). But "ascenceur" means lift, as in "the maker of going up".


@lefarfadet No, yeah... I'm actually Italian, and "descending" sounds like "going down" in my language too. Probably also any sufficiently educated English speaker would make the same association.

But the stronger association in my brain is that going from A to Z is like going from 1 to 26. In both cases, we're going from small to big as we go down. Hence, ...


@codewiz @lefarfadet Interesting hypothesis. I'm Swedish and we don't use terms such as "descending" or "ascending". We use terms that could best be translated as "letter ordering" and "reverse letter ordering". We also have similar terms for "numerical order".

@loke Interesting! In french we use "croissant" and "décroissant" for ascending and descending order respectively. It means growing and diminishing. So it carries the idea of going up and down somehow.

And yes, it's the exact same word as the famous pastry/cake :YEEEEEE:


@lefarfadet @loke I thought you were making some joke, there... In french we use "baguette" and "débaguette" 😂

But it's quite the opposite: croissant just means crescent... because they look like a crescent moon:

@lefarfadet @loke But it's not at all unrelated: a crescent moon is a moon that's growing into a full moon!

At least in Italian, the opposite of "luna crescente" is "luna calante" (decreasing moon).

But in English it's "waning crescent", so they must have misunderstood the deeper meaning of crescent when they borrowed it from Latin 😂

I stand lectured! Never thought abt it this way :blob_laughing: thanks!

...oh, jeez! Now I'm starting to see it your way: if that's an *arrow*, it should be pointing down. Since the numbers increase downward.

I saw that as a greater-than sign because the stem is missing. If it looked more like a proper arrow, I would have never come up with the "a < z" argument 😖

@lefarfadet @loke

Hahaha so it boils down to how you draw the arrow :ablobspin:

I guess that's also culturally biaised.

@loke @tennoseremel

@lefarfadet @codewiz @tennoseremel Definitely. Since we call it "letter ordering", my instinct is to think of it as an arrow pointing in the order of the alphabet.

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