btw... I use ...

...which doesn't force you to reboot, but leaves your system in an inconsistent state where your kernel doesn't match the installed modules... apps can't load KFile libs... and a number of other glitches.


apt-get upgrade is working perfectly for me on ubuntu... fwiw... :)

The only thing I have to fix manually from time to time is repos...

Kubuntu user here: only glitches in Firefox (tabs crash and require the browser to be restarted)

@codewiz haha, can relate. Sometimes konsole with that cool background blur starts flickering after a `sudo pacman -Syu`

@srevinsaju @codewiz Me a Debian stable user:

Gee, I sure hope this doesn't affect me in about 6 years.

@codewiz I'm guessing these are issues Silverblue-like distros + Flatpak will probably be able to fix? :blobcatbox:

(I wonder if that model will end up catching on with more popular distros some day)

@tromino I checked, and the filesystem structure would in theory allow keeping two versions of the same app (see ~/.local/share/flatpak/app).

However, I tried upgrading Signal while it was running, and it immediately erased the old version. I concluded that probably lacks the extra code to keep track of running apps and delete the old version when they exit (or perhaps it's not yet working well enough to make it the default).

@tchx84, do you know more?

@codewiz Problem with kernel modules can be solved with pacman hook (you can find it in aur or copy by hand). I came to updating once a week with reboot.

Windows doesn't need to reboot more often than for instance Ubuntu for similar reasons. That's some old idea that's not been true for several years now :)

@sexybiggetje I agree, although I have seen Windows reboot *multiple times* to perform a larger update.

This could be due to packages having separate installers, each requiring reboot before applications requiring them can be installed.

On the other hand, can even update graphics drivers without rebooting.

During the installation., the output stops and the screen goes dark, as if the system had crashed. But then, after a couple of seconds it comes back to life 😌


Instead, we are regressing: as is switching to , it's no longer possible to restart gnome-shell without losing the entire session. In , it's no longer possible to update kwin_wayland without restarting the session.

Both these these components are much more complex than the X server, and thus more prone to crashing. This is a serious architectural limitation for Wayland and I don't know what could be done about it.


@codewiz I am enjoying your language how well written your opinion is. Thanks, I learned a lot from it.


@ademalsasa @sexybiggetje Thanks! 😊

(hey... I wrote "these these" in my last comment! 🤨)

@codewiz I know it sure seems like Ubuntu desktop harasses me about wanting to reboot at least once a week. It's started getting pretty annoying.

How about just not using software manager then, or the forced reboots?
I installed a Thinkpad T460s with Fed33 workstation, to use as HDMI source, look at btrfs and whether the wayland/sway/ibus issues improved.
The update strategy bothers me so much that I will default to server installations on my systems for now, for normal updates.
But like for btrfs, a majority wanted this stuff apparently, so it's there. Good I can opt into not using it, unlike Wintendo.

@globalc seriously scares me, but so far I'm not hearing any F33 users crying that btrfs ate their data and the recovery tools are buggy or slow or unavailable from the recovery shell.

Let's wait 6 months before drawing any conclusions...

I'm using #btrfs for some time now. Mostly for subvolums and snappshots with snapper. Saved me a feve times allready. The only "isue" I had so far, was running out of space once.

@landel @globalc Did it recover gracefully from running out of space?

That is, did you just have to delete a few files, or did you have to find esoteric btrfs commands that a regular desktop user wouldn't have a clue about?

And another important metric: does the system keep booting regularly when it's in this state, so that can users recover from the desktop instead of using the emergency shell?

The actual isue was snapper not deleting old snapshots, so yes it was a litle tricky, and it doen't directly free the memory (it has to GC it).
But it started almost normally (KDE other apps were quite buggy)

Im keeping a closer eye on disk now.

But backup recovery has never been smother.
So I would still recomend it, if you are OK with learning how it works.


@codewiz @globalc
Just deleting a snapshoted file, wonnt free its space until you also delete the snapshot. But creating snapshots is almost for free, in both storage and time.

@landel @globalc I'm ok to learn how it works, but I feel bad for the desktop end-users who don't know what's a filesystem and a snapshot, and will have to reinstall the OS when it's in this state.

I can recomand snapper-gui, if they realy want to use btrfs AND snapper.
If they don't, ther should be no isues, altough this way, btrfs would lose most benefits for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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