I'm absolutely pro-vax (on voluntary basis), as is everyone in this conversation. But when the very inventor of the mRNA gene therapy tells you that his concerns about the experimental COVID vaccines were straight-up ignored by the FDA, and now they seem to be coming true, then really, everyone needs to stop and do a reality check. It's not the scientific method to just blurt out "IT'S SAFE" whenever challenged during a mass trial of a novel medical intervention.


@raucao Won't a replicating virus put more spike protein in your body than the fixed dose of spike protein that creates immunity against it?

Don't give it to people who are at risk of an adverse reaction, obviously.


@clacke @raucao IMO it depends on whether spike components are produced & shed similarly in natural infection, which seems plausible.

I suspect purely on a numbers basis of bad outcomes vs infection, if problems are indeed happening as described, round 1 vaccines are still a good bet for those near middle age and up. if major harm was coming to lots of people after the shots, we'd have heard it sooner and be hearing it louder, "fact checkers" and hivemind maintenance notwithstanding

@deutrino @raucao Indeed. Mass vaccination is a powerful phase IV trial.

I haven't listened to the thing. Did they offer a way that the mRNA-produced protein would be more dangerous than the more traditional adenovirus-produced one?

@clacke @deutrino Btw, S1 is not the only potential issue. What could be even worse is non-neutralizing antibodies hiding future infections from the immune system for example.



@raucao @clacke what bugs me more than scattered issues w/new vaccines is the insistence that nothing could possibly go wrong with them based on reasoning which doesn't support that. imo it's narrative-first gaslighting with the goal of shaping people's perception for a desired result and it's bullshit.

a vaccine is a bioactive agent which gets injected into the body. human beings are not yet capable of making *anything* like that which doesn't fuck up some % of people who take it.

@clacke @raucao I only watched like 10 min of it but I do remember some vaccines are using spike proteins altered to be conformationally stable in a desired configuration, others are using a spike closer to wild type

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