Debian, anti-trans 

@liw Are you concerned that this person might be misgendered? And does it not equally concern you that women are being fired from their jobs for identifying men as males?

@alex @liw So much context and empathy lost here. Murray is a non-binary who, in that quote, complained about TERF lesbians blocking the London pride march because it supported trans people - naturally, the insult didn't go to all (cis) lesbians. Maya got fired for refusing their pronouns and denying their identity. This picture taken from r/GenderCritical implies that having a beard and not calling yourself a man is disgusting and an attack towards (cis) women, which is dehumanizing.

@alex @liw Finally, you are presenting a dichotomy that does not exist, as Murray didn't displace Maya in her job - and in the global context, just by mere intuitive maths, there is no way trans people (which, remember, Murray is non-binary) are displacing cis women as such group far outweights the other, and if that ever happens it will be because everyone born with a vagina will have become trans. And one group's rights in no way contradict the other, and in fact join together as human rights.

@alex @liw So the key question arises: Are you concerned that this person might not be misgendered? And does it not equally concern you that trans people are being attacked for asking people to respect them? Don't people have a right over their identities, over what defines one as a person, as we so assume with names? What happens to respect, that some cannot hold it when one uses an identity that isn't linked to the genitals they were born with?

@alex @liw You can dislike and disapprove their insults, that's perfectly fine. As for everything else? You're trying to justify the unjustifiable. You can be as critical and disagreeing as you want, but how you think and feel about what reality is isn't a free pass for trampling on others' dignity nor to exclude them. Please consider this.

Hey @espectalll, I appreciate your openness to dialogue. I think it's important we can discuss things we disagree about.

I'm a gender nonconforming man. The only difference between me and Murray is that Murray identifies as non-binary.

I don't think a person should be able to simply say they identify a certain way and then expect that they can opt out of the societal influences surrounding sex. I don't feel comfortable being a man, but I have still been socialized as a man. Men rule the world (patriarchy). We are more likely to commit acts of violence, and less likely to do household tasks or support children. Changing the way one identifies doesn't erase these things, and people should have the freedom to point that out. First and foremost I'm pro-feminist, and I don't support women's rights being eroded.

I agree with this perspective of non-binary:


@alex @liw First of all, I'll acknowledge the goalpost shifting you just did. Non-binary and overall trans validity is not a debatable question, and someone's discriminatory refusal to use a pronoun and the consequent job loss isn't a priority over people's dignity and lives, particularly with a minority that is disproportionately unemployed. Let's make that clear.

@alex @liw Being non-conforming and non-binary isn't the same but calling yourself differently. Being agender, bigender, genderfluid or anything not fitting within guy or girl isn't something one picks up just for acting rebel, nor an embracement or escapism of oppression - which comes from gender roles that non-binaries break. It's not merely wanting to dress this or that way or act this or that way. It's all about plurality.

@alex @liw It's about the plurality of how people can feel about themselves, how genders are interpreted and play into one's individual dynamic, acknowledging it's not linked to our body parts. We will free ourselves from gender roles not by telling us only sex exists, but by detaching and getting rid of roles, by making everyone free to be themselves without shame or polarization.

You can still be a femboy or whatever doesn't conform to your (cis) gender. Not everyone fits that.

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