I feel the best way immutable #Linux operating systems like (the excellent) #Fedora #Silverblue can get over the remaining usability issues is if they make a conscious decision to forget that they are immutable operating systems.

What are the defaults you would implement if you weren’t allowed to tell people it was immutable?

Implement those.

(e.g., Have the default terminal open in a mutable container & a separate command to launch an advanced “admin” console for layering, etc.)

#design

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@aral

Isn't that also counterproductive in a way though? Shouldn't the longer term goal and "ideal" use case be to avoid mutable terminal shenanigans as much as possible?
For inexperienced users default mutable containers might be misleading because they might be tempted to blindly follow googled tutorials and do a lot of apt-get/dnf/zypper etc. Very experienced ones will get along fine either way.

@aral

It probably might be the more attractive option for intermediate linux users looking to switch, who are somewhat used to the terminal and might feel immutable systems are missing something because they are not aware toolboxes etc exist. But even for them it might reinforce "bad" patterns then.

@aral

Either way, having a preconfigured toolbox from the get-go would probably still be a good idea, default option or not.

@just_a_frog @aral Mac OS has an immutable system partition, does it not? The idea is eventually the average Joe can use it, and there’s GUI tooling to handle rollbacks when necessary, etc. Ideally, The technical people will know how to work with the immutability, and the non-technical people should never need to worry about or even notice the fact that the system is immutable.

@leggettc18 @just_a_frog Exactly what I was saying. If you have to know that it’s immutable that means the seams are showing. Immutability of the OS should be an implementation detail. Have intelligent defaults; layer the seams.

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