Another HN thread about Emacs. I don't think I've ever seen anyone using Emacs as a daily driver editor in the past 5 years...
@postroutine Superior as in able to complete the same tasks faster and easier while requiring no time to be spent on configuration, or able to complete tasks impossible for the counterpart.
@nuclear Emacs is fast and simple. Seeing the configuration and the learning of a tool as a bad thing is arbitrary. And I can do with Emacs every things I want or need.
The problem is that you see what you prefer as an universal requierment. Peoples have differents needs and that why there is no superior tools. The goal is to offer to people what they need or want. For some it's Emacs, for other it's something else.
After more than half an hour of tinkering with a huge config (most of which was already written beforehand), Emacs is nowhere near what VS Code offers out of the box. And even the best config you can think of sucks in terms of e.g. Intellisense, UX, UI freezing because there is only 1 thread, random packages breaking, etc.
@nuclear I don't speak in abstract, but in general. And your video is not concrete:
It's one use case for you on which you don't know how to use Emacs in it.
That doesn't mean Emacs can't do it.
@nuclear Again, thinking that learning and configuring a tool as a bad thing is subjective. You think is bad doesn't mean it is for everyone.
The time spend in learning and config a tool, like a text editor, is insignificant to the time spend to use it.
And regardless to the tool, learning how to use it will allow you to get the most out of it.
It's not a bad thing to learn and customize your tools.
The "out of the box" is not an argument. It's your preference.
@nuclear User experience with Emacs is very good. It's different, but but there is not only one user experience.
UX need to take must take into account the context, the profile and experience of the users.
And you don't design a text editor like a music player: You don't interact the same among of time with the two software.
@nuclear About the UI freeze: Never had it while I was coding.
Emacs is designed to delegate heavy works to external tools, who run in async.
Emacs done the text display and manipulation, but code analysis, the error check, are done by external tools started by Emacs.
Emacs communicate with the launched tool and provide the UI to interact with what the external tool have done.
And Emacs can interact with a lot of tools who provide informations and manipulations of the code and its structure.
You can even use Language Servers.
@nuclear After more the 10 years, I never have a random package breaking.
In general, Emacs have been more stable for me than any IDE or text editor which was imposed on me at school and work.
And I used Emacs for more time than the others tools.
@postroutine Give me the best Emacs config for React + Typescript you can come up with, and I will explain why it's objectively inferior to a stock VS Code. I've been using Emacs for years and know very well how to configure it and what plugins there are. It's not worth it.
@postroutine BTW, Emacs is extremely far from "simple". It has been ridiculed for years for being bloated and slow. Even despite the hardware catching up, it's still slow because of no multithreading. And the complexity of the config required to make it useful for anything is enormous. Compare it with Intellij or VS Code that just works out of the box.
@nuclear Emacs is based on simple principles, on a simplified Lisp adapted to text manipulation.
It's different from what people see on Windows world, but different don't mean complex.
@nuclear "It has been ridiculed for years for being bloated and slow."
Wrong cliche are not an argument. I used Emacs on very old hardware, with low CPU, few RAM and disk space, and it was fast and effective.
And about the config, I will repeat: Learning and customizing a tool is not a bad Thing.
I already exposed my arguments about it in another toot.
@nuclear What emerges from our discussion is that you don't know Emacs, except a few cliches.
Emacs does not correspond to what you search in a tool. But your requirement is not universal.
The goal is to every one use the tool adapted to their need. There is no "superior" or "inferior" tool.
And no one is obsolete.
@nuclear And I don't want to continue discuss this topic. The word you use, "obsolete", "superior alternatives", "bloated", blame the Emacs user to be not able to take rational decision.
As a Emacs user, I can tell that we don't have to justify the relevance of our choices. Whatever the implicit injunction to justify of your words.
@postroutine I'd like to see how you're using it for everyday programming. Do you have any recording or maybe you do live coding?
Emacs is definitely not slow in itself. Trust the millions of developers that use it as a powerful daily driver. Just like any other IDE, piling up plugins does not help.
If you are looking for a "working out of the box" experience with Emacs, take a look at Doom Emacs. https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs
The one and only valid point I see in your arguments is that Emacs is single-threaded. I never saw this as a performance issue, though. But I have been a victim of blocking I/O on a few rare occasions over the past 5 years of daily Emacs use.
Definitely not a good experience, I must admit, but it was always due to a bug in a plugin that was quickly fixed.
And if you are looking for Emacs coding experience showcases, just search the web for videos. Here are a few accounts to follow (on YT, I did not have the time to find them on other platforms):
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