@sir What alternatives could you suggest? IRC is text-only and primitive and Matrix is slow and I haven't yet seen a client with decent UX. I haven't used Zulip or Mattermost yet, I've only heard of them.

@phoe @sir The fact that IRC is text-only (though there's an updated spec in the making) is not a handicap but a feature.

IRC + mailing lists (with archives). When you put the facts on the table, there's nothing better.

@slp @phoe @sir
Then please put these facts on the table. I only have intuition that IRC+email is better, but no arguments I could use to convince other people...

@slp @sir @phoe mailing lists are great, sure. but IRC lacks message history. should i stay on IRC 24/7 or deal with this fuckery with chat logs?

@moderator @slp @sir Or have an IRC bot that collects logs, and pray that it does not have any downtime.

@phoe @moderator @slp tools like irccloud make this easy. And it's more likely than not other people have their own logs to help build a full picture if some bot goes down. But here's the real answer:

It's not a big deal if you miss some of the conversation.

@sir @slp @phoe to me it's still quite uncomfortable to go to separate page and look for the logs. i'd rather choose to talk via XMPP and if you don't want useless crap such as images and stuff, you can just don't use unneeded extensions

@moderator @sir @phoe Important stuff must go via mailing list, where is archived in a way friendly to search engine crawlers.

You can easily find threads of LKML or *BSD just by searching on DuckDuckGo. Losing that due to the use of Slack or Discord is a *huge* loss, but we'll only be conscious about that in 3-5 years.

@moderator @slp @phoe I hardly ever need to reference logs. How often do you actually need to? The rest of the time is just catching up on shit you didn't need to see anyway

@sir @slp @moderator @phoe
We had some reason to start publishing logs. I don't really agree with it being useful for all cases, but our project leader had some reasons for it.

Being able to disconnect and not expect people to be connected 24/7 in the network might be a challenge for some younger people or people who got used to history synchronization.
I find it liberating. If I'm not online, I'm not online.

@sir @phoe @moderator @slp Missing out on conversation makes it hard to lurk. Lurking is good because it gives new users an idea of what the culture is like, who to talk to for particular things, what bots are being used, etc before running their mouths.

@wysteria @phoe @moderator @slp missing the conversation doesn't make it hard to work. If your input is needed on something then someone will ping you when you're online. Obsessively reading the entire backlog is nuts

@sir @phoe @moderator @slp You're right it's nuts, so it doesn't have to be the entire backlog. I don't see how that defeats my point about lurking though. Lurking is common courtesy for the regulars in a channel and having some backlog makes it much easier for new users to lurk.

@wysteria @phoe @moderator @slp a backlog doesn't really help lurkers. It's not lurking if you just read 10 lines of backlog and start talking. Lurking involves sitting there and watching the chat for a while.

@sir @phoe @moderator @slp in the time it takes the regulars to type out 10 lines I could read 20 or 50 lines of backlog, or 100 if its a slow day. Then I can start talking without looking like a fool.

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