Matrix would do better if they built an XMPP bridge into the server, so that each Matrix room was also available as an XMPP MUC, because the energy spent on trashing the other open protocol could be spent catching up to Discord, Mattermost, etc.
@luna @allison @cadence
@lnxw37a2 @allison @mewmew @luna @cadence
IIRC at the very start they had a FAQ why do we need a new protocol and can't just use an existing one, and they argued that XMPP's architecture causes some unfixable issues. So in a way, XMPP being bad justifies Matrix's existence. If they didn't hate on XMPP, they'd have to admit the whole new protocol is a wasted effort.
I can get my family on Matrix. there's no way I'm getting them on XMPP. Matrix clients are more user-friendly, and the protocol is more useful.
@mewmew @allison @luna @cadence @lnxw37a2
>the latter
But it's false.
There are a bunch of people building on XMPP, and a few days ago I've seen Tigase publish their implementation of MIX.
ICYMI, MIX is a replacement for MUC, but based on pubsub and aiming for a more Discord/Slack/Matrix-style experience (with history and all that).
Also, some of popular proprietary chat apps (forgot which) use XMPP internally.
Both of these show that XMPP is a viable base to build a modern chat on.
@wolf480pl @allison @luna @cadence @lnxw37a2 oh wow someone built a third type of muc, this one’s gonna work 
Also, some of popular proprietary chat apps (forgot which) use XMPP internally.
no, because they don’t federate which is the whole point here
@mewmew @allison @luna @cadence @lnxw37a2
Your other argument - convincing faimly, user-friendliness, etc - are more about the clients and top-level features, not really about the core protocol.
And you're right, XMPP's ecosystem with the mess of extension sucks.
But that doesn't mean Matrix couldn't use XMPP core and build their extensions and clients on top, achieveing the same result without making the latency skyrocket
there's a lot of work on writing non-Synapse Matrix that won't have the latency issues.
@mewmew @allison @luna @cadence @lnxw37a2
srsly though:
Even if this is an implementation issue, they wouldn't have it if they built on top of XMPP, because then they could just extend/fork ejabberd or Tigase or sth.
By choosing to develop their protocol from scratch, they opted in to that mountain of work that they have to do before they have a solid implementation.
I still don't see how this is even a problem given that it a. only effects things that are not Matrix homeservers b. is somewhat hard to pull off and c. doesn't even work well given the nature of backoff
@mewmew @allison @luna @cadence @lnxw37a2
Ok, so they have a chance to end up with a decent, scalable protocol. And after a few trials and errors they'll probably have a performant and reliable implementation.
I think by that time MIX will be widely implemented, possibly with nice clients with Matrix/Discord-like UX.
Does that mean Matrix was wasted effort? Not necessarily.
But I don't think Matrix is significantly better than XMPP overall. It wins in some areas, loses in others.
